James Clyburn Speaks

OK, I know I'm supposed to add some commentary about this article, but honestly, I'm speechless. I don't know what to make of these quotes from Rep. James Clyburn, the godfather of African American politics in South Carolina. I'm reaching for the reset button on my brain.

So, I'll just post a paragraph or two, given you a link to the entire article, and let you guys discuss amongst yourselves:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/sleuth/20 08/01/james_clyburn_undeclared_not_u.htm l

The notorious Horton came up [in his conversation last night with Bill Clinton], Clyburn said, after Clinton complained about South Carolina Democratic bigwig Dick Harpootlian comparing the ex-prez to Lee Atwater, the GOP operative who made Willie Horton a household name. (Horton, for any readers who don't remember, was a convicted murderer who committed violent crime while on a Dukakis-endorsed weekend furlough from a Massachusetts prison.)

Clyburn said Clinton was "not very happy with that" comparison, but he assured Clyburn he wouldn't be retaliating. "It will be behind us," Clyburn said Clinton told him.

And then this:

Clyburn also said he disagrees with Bill Clinton's assessment that Obama will win the black vote in South Carolina while his wife, Hillary Rodham Clinton, will win the majority of votes cast by women in the state. In fact, while he isn't about to say whom he personally plans to vote for on Saturday, Clyburn said he hasn't found one black leader yet in South Carolina who is declared for Obama.

Two of those leaders are in the family. His maternal cousin, Leon Howard, who is chairman of the South Carolina Legislative Black Caucus, and paternal cousin, Bill Clyburn, a member of the black caucus, are both supporting John Edwards. Clyburn said he knows of three black state senators supporting Clinton. But none that he has found are supporting Obama.

Clyburn said he doesn't really see Obama as the "black candidate" polls are making him out to be. If anything, Clyburn argued, Obama is the white candidate.

snip

Clyburn predicted the Democratic primary on Saturday will be "a lot tighter" than the polls suggest, some of which have Obama leading Clinton by as much as 17 percentage points.



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Re: James Clyburn Speaks (none / 0)

BTW, for those who haven't seen this Harpootlian character, he's a good ol' boy white fella.

I have no earthly idea what he was thinking comparing Bill Clinton to Lee Atwater. I mean...seriously brain dead move. I'm starting to wonder if all the white out-of-state operatives Obama sent to run the South Carolina campaign know what they are doing? Calling a Democrat Lee Atwater in South Carolina is fightin' words.


by hwc on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 03:16:13 AM EST

Re: James Clyburn Speaks (none / 0)

Clyburn predicted the Democratic primary on Saturday will be "a lot tighter" than the polls suggest, some of which have Obama leading Clinton by as much as 17 percentage points.

- That maybe right Zogby has the polling for yesterday ( thursday) in his rolling average at

Obama 36

Clinton 31


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 03:20:50 AM EST

Re: James Clyburn Speaks (none / 0)

I must agree, as a supporter, that Obama's prospects in South Carolina are increasingly, and alarmingly, perilous.  And a loss would likely spell the end to his campaign.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:35:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: James Clyburn Speaks (none / 0)

Shaun, glad you're back.


by lonnette33 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:08:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: James Clyburn Speaks (none / 0)

Tell me something Obama supporters, why is it when someone supporting Hillary says something about Obama's past drug use, they must be fired and Hillary must apologize? Why is it that that is more reprehensible than what Mr. Harpootlian said about a beloved member of our party?

Where is the outcry in this? Here is a perfect example of how the Obama campaign is playing the race card! This guy is a disgrace and should immediately resign from the Obama campaign! Obama should personally apologize to Bill Clinton! Why is it always said on here that Hillary is running the dirty campaign, when in reality, after everything that was "considered" dirty she immediately apologized for or fired the person having anything to do with it? After everything The BO camp has said that was disgusting not one person was fired and not one time did Obama apologize for it! That says volumes about his character!

Bill Shaheen anyone?

I can't wait to see the media ignore this one and the BO supporters to spin it as well! OBAMA IS RACE BAITING NOT CLINTON!!! And they have been from the very begining!


by boxer4hrc on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:01:21 AM EST

The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)


In this they proceeded on the sound principle that the magnitude of a lie always contains a certain factor of credibility, since the great masses of the people in the very bottom of their hearts tend to be corrupted rather than consciously and purposely evil, and that, therefore, in view of the primitive simplicity of their minds they more easily fall a victim to a big lie than to a little one, since they themselves lie in little things, but would be ashamed of lies that were too big. Such a falsehood will never enter their heads and they will not be able to believe in the possibility of such monstrous effrontery and infamous misrepresentation in others; yes, even when enlightened on the subject, they will long doubt and waver, and continue to accept at least one of these causes as true. Therefore, something of even the most insolent lie will always remain and stick-a fact which all the great lie-virtuosi and lying-clubs in this world know only too well and also make the most treacherous use of.

Adolf Hitler - Mein Kampf 1925

Let's hope that 'some things never change' is a falsehood in this instance, eh?


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:31:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

First, Godwin's Law, for Chrissakes.  Second, every one of us knows what it means to call someone Lee Atwater.

Funny thing, you didn't hear Lee Atwater and Katrina coming up in New Hampshire, for some reason, and I'm betting you won't hear those two things coming up in South Dakota either.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:10:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

Well, sometimes reductio ad Hitlerum is the logical memetic solution and Godwin made no statement as to it's appropriateness, merely it's probability.  

As for the trajectory of the entire 'race' discussion, like any ballistic analysis, one must accurately determine the point of origin and muzzle velocity before correcting for windage and drift.  To attribute this narrative to the Obama campaign, which has assiduously avoided such a debate, leads back to my original citation.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 04:16:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

Assiduously saying Hillary didn't cry over Katrina, assiduously generating the South Carolina memo, assiduously condemning the ad by supporters in Nevada that said Hillary doesn't respect Latinos.  No one without blinders on is believing this line.

You cannot say "Hillary didn't cry over Katrina" and then claim that you've tried your darndest to keep race out of it.  I will not buy what you are selling no matter how many Nazi comparisons you bring into it.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 04:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

Well, as I suggested, it would seem that the means, motive and opportunity have been established for the case of the Hillary campaign, quite expertly, having seriously damaged Obama on a point of strategy relating to issues of race in the campaign.  The MLK/LBJ remark, whatever it's merits, and, more to the point, the predictable reaction to it in the media and from Obama's campaign, was the clear origin point of this narrative.  Not a day has passed without further fuel being added to the fire.  It has been accomplished in full view of any attentive observer.

The Obama's campaign had assiduously, and necessarily, avoided the perception of his candidacy as that of a 'black' candidate.  This perception has now been damaged, perhaps destroyed.  This seems a significant win for the Clintons and I am inclined to believe it dooms Obama's bid for the nomination.  Credit where credit is due, it is hard to see how it could have been avoided given the carefully crafted message emanating from the Clintons and the cupidity of the media.

But to attribute this narrative to Obama defies logic and evidence, and the inflammatory reactions of third-parties and surrogates merely serves to provide a cover story for the perpetrators, as was no doubt anticipated.  Make no mistake, we are witnessing a masterful display of political cunning, and the attribution of it to Obama's campaign is the pièce de résistance.

This is a 'big lie,' a truly grand one.  If cultural myopia prevents you seeing the relevance of that citation who would you have had me cite on the subject?


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:08:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

If I can sort through your verbiage to get to the point, you seem to be saying that this all started from the MLK controversy and therefore everything after that fact - even something as blatant as "Hillary didn't cry over Katrina" or "Hillary doesn't respect Latinos" - is completely excusable because Hillary started it.

Without bothering to get into that further, let me break down the MLK controversy as I remember it.

Hillary said in clear reference to Obama, at the NH debate, that "we don't need to be raising the false hopes of our country about what can be delivered."  That was kind of a harsh remark and she was panned for it.

Obama decided to try and capitalize on it by ridiculing the notion of "false hopes" in his stump speech the next day.  "Dr. King standing on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. 'You know, this dream thing, it's a false hope. We can't expect equality.'"

I think it was fair game in a political sense for Obama to make that argument, but I do find it a bit presumptuous for him to assume the mantle of MLK in that manner.  It's like he's saying, if you accuse Barack Obama of raising false hopes, you're accusing MLK of raising false hopes too.

Be that as it may, Hillary was then asked about Obama's line, and she made her comments about how it took a President to get it done, yadda yadda.  Having read her comments a million times, it comes across as nothing more than clumsy.  The idea that she consciously decided, as a matter of strategy to denigrate MLK's legacy is just nuts.  I believe she was trying to make the point that it takes both inspiration and political action to achieve results, and it came out badly.

Be that as it may, there's no doubt in my mind that the Obama campaign rushed to gin up the controversy as fast and as furiously as possible.  They played it for all it was worth, they didn't try to give Hillary the benefit of the doubt, there's no question that they relished the notion that black folks were getting upset because Hillary had supposedly insulted MLK.

The Obama campaign could have made a choice to try to dampen down the racial nature of the controversy, to avoid letting it come to a boil, but instead they decided to escalate matters.  It was only two days later that Jesse Jackson Jr. made his offensive "Katrina" remarks on national TV.  It's hard for me to see how the Obama campaign didn't try to exploit the controversy for everything it was worth.

Even after a "truce" was supposedly declared at the Las Vegas debate, the Obama campaign flat-out refused to condemn an ad from their supporters which claimed that Hillary didn't respect Latinos.   Just like everything that had taken place previously, that is not the act of a campaign doing all that it can to avoid race-related controversies.

That's my take on the whole situation.  Both sides are most certainly to blame, and there's no doubt that the Obama campaign contributed to the escalation of the whole dispute.  If you want to compare me to the Nazis for taking a measured view of the situation, fine, but I won't be speaking to you again if that's the case.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:21:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

Well, firstly, no-one is comparing you to the Nazis, for pity's sake.  Apologies for any slight and it certainly was unintentional if given.  However the 'big lie' in all of this is that this racial identity issue is attributed to Obama's campaign, a position which you seem to endorse on the evidence of their clumsy reaction and failure to avoid the pitfall.  Incidentally, I am not sure I accept that any aspect of 20th century history which touches, however remotely, on that of the Third Reich is out-of-bounds in intelligent and mutually respectful discussion, as I hope this remains, especially with you.

Personally I assume that the racial identity issue is a brilliant, in fact decisive, strategy on the part of Hillary's campaign and the Obama campaign got suckered into the debate for which they only have themselves to blame.  I'm guessing it will be the end of him in this campaign cycle.

That is was done intentionally, subtlety or not so subtlety depending on your credulity, by the Hillary campaign seems irrefutable.  If you want to go into that in more detail I would be happy to oblige but it probably warrants a diary on the subject.

I certainly meant no offence by quoting from Mein Kampf but I can think of no more compelling critique of the idea of the 'big lie' than the one I quoted and it seems worth noting in the current climate of identity politics.  We must learn to recognise it when we see it and it has been used frequently in our political process and remains, sadly, a damaging and effective tactic which continues to effect our collective intellectual integrity and electoral outcomes.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:32:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

I think your prose style often makes it hard to confront issues directly.  I will try to keep this simple.

I believe it is absurd to think that Hillary's clumsy MLK comment was deviously calculated to set off a race war.  If you disagree, you have a right to your opinion, but I think it's pretty silly.

I believe it is impossible to claim that the Obama campaign tried as hard as it could to keep race out of the campaign, in light of the offensive Katrina remark that they never even walked back.  If you were trying as hard as you could not to make it about race, you wouldn't go there.

I think these two propositions are clear.  If you disagree with either of them, I'd like you to explain why.

Within the boundaries of those two propositions, I have set forth what I think is a pretty fair assessment of the whole controversy, one where both sides share some responsibility for escalating the matter.

If you want to parcel out the blame slightly differently, that's fine.  Different people can see the same events differently.  But that doesn't mean the other guy is complicit in some sort of Nazi-style Big Lie.  That's just a rhetorical trump card designed to end an argument by announcing that the other guy is intentionally lying.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:31:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

My statement that the Obama campaign was assiduously avoiding the perception of race applies to the 12 months of campaigning before the intermission between the Iowa and New Hampshire primaries and if you think that requires substantiation we can go there.  From the point at which the MLK/LBJ and 'fairy tale' remarks were raised it has been another matter and as I said the Obama campaign has been suckered into one indefensible and damaging assertion after another in a futile, and ill advised, attempt at push back.  Perhaps we can agree about that.

I do maintain, however, that this has been a calculated, and demonstrably successful, strategy on the part of the Hillary campaign to re-frame the entire election and I certainly think it was intentional and premeditated.  If you would like to discuss that point, on which we obviously disagree, I will be happy to do so as there is plenty of evidence to work with.  As I said, means, motive and opportunity would be a good place to start.  They line up pretty clearly in support of this argument as I see it, for starters.  Perhaps I should write a diary on the subject and we take it from there.

As for the 'big lie,' those-that-can't-be-named have no monopoly on this perennial tactic and I would cite the WMD's in Iraq narrative as a recent, well documented and persistent example.  There are certainly others which would encourage erstwhile practitioners.  To lay the racial narrative which has emerged at Obama's door is an essential exit strategy for Hillary if she hopes to demolish Obama smartly and still retain her broadest constituency in the general election.  I am suggesting this was an essential component of the strategy from it's inception.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:58:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

I find it pretty amazing that you can reassign all blame to the Clinton campaign like this - they got suckered into saying Hillary didn't cry over Katrina, really? - but I'm not particularly interested in trying to hash it out any further.

I'll simply say this, if it was truly so easy to sucker Obama into playing the race card and thereby rendering himself unelectable, he wouldn't have lasted a week in the general election.  One or two snide references from the GOP and his campaign would have flipped out.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 10:12:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

Perhaps you're right.  On the other hand, perhaps with the support of the party the issue would have turned the other way, in any event you would have to admit that Obama has never enjoyed the support of the blogosphere or the Democratic establishment.  It was a trump card which Hillary and Bill calculated they could play and survive the experience, and events are proving them correct.

As for the tit-for-tat episodes in the course of this rancorous and destructive internecine quarrel over the racial narrative of Obama's candidacy I am surprised you can't see the forest for the trees.  You are suggesting that the likelihood of this scenario is so ridiculous that you will not entertain any further discussion on the matter?  Fain enough, you are entitled to your opinion and I will trouble you no more with it.  Just one parting thought, however, in what universe would the opening up of this line of debate be considered to have any possible benefit to Obama's campaign?  In fact how could it be seen as anything but a potentially fatal minefield to his ambitions and the aspirations of his supporters?  If you can fairly evaluate that question we will have our answer.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 10:29:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

Well, perhaps they thought they could sell enough people on the notion that the Clintons were the architect of the racial narrative.  Or perhaps it really was a bunch of overzealous staffers who weren't reined in swiftly enough.  The episode with the radio ad in Nevada suggests to me that the Obama campaign has very poor judgment in terms of distancing themselves from things they shouldn't be associated with.

If you assume that there is no rational explanation for the Obama campaign to behave in the way it did, then how would the Clinton campaign know they could be provoked into such self-destructive behavior?  The reason I think you emphasize the forest instead of the trees is that if you drill down to the level of analyzing the trees then there's no way to construct a coherent narrative.  You have to ascribe to the Clintons some sort of superhuman power to dictate events.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 'Big Lie' (none / 0)

Well, that's a remarkably good point but I reckon it was a 'forced mate.'  Once the narrative was broached there is no way that Obama could wriggle free.  Now he's toast, eh?

But I can feel a rambunctious diary coming on on this point, feel free to savage it when I get there.  Superhuman?  Not necessarily.  Just ask Fischer or Kasparov, but I am certainly allowing for a political sophistication which bodes well for Hillary's prospects in the general election.  In this case the solution is probably simpler than it appears on prima facie evidence.  And as for your arguments I always enjoy them immensely for their coherence and, mostly, verisimilitude.  When you aren't telling me that I am an absolute prick, that is, which is accurate enough sometimes.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 12:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: James Clyburn Speaks on MSNBC this morning (none / 0)

James Clyburn on Joe Scarborough this morning and he was great. He wasn't sucked in to either Joe OR Mika's narrative about Clinton being the cause of the race contention, and flat out rebutted their attempts to paint the whole thing as Clinton's fault.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:40:51 AM EST

Clyburn is pandering... (none / 0)

But it appears he's trying to play both ends aganist the middle. He says one thing to one news outlet and says another to another. Something has to be said about his pandering to the AAs in SC-it appears he's trying to save his own behind.


by lonnette33 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:11:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Other than Obama, his camp, and his surrogates (2.00 / 1)

Outside of them nobody cares.  Bill was right about regular voters.

I posted last night about Hardball.  Chris as a pane had Tucker, an African Ameircan radio host from SC, and an A.A. writer from the  WaPost.

Tucker and Chris spent the whole segement giving them openings ... aren't the Clintons awful type stuff, aren't they playin the race card type stuff.

The two A.A. guests would have none of it.   Chris and Tucker were visably disappoingted.  The two just said it was a hard campaign, that people incl women and African Americans were torn in different directions as you might expect on the cusp of an historic election, etc.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:53:02 AM EST

Re: James Clyburn Speaks (none / 0)

hwc did you see this.  Another 527 group has put out ads for Obama. Of course, not a word for St. Obama.  After Obama's holier than thou attitude in IA, I hope JRE and Hill jump on this one.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg i?f=/c/a/2008/01/25/MN4RULJ87.DTL&ty pe=politics&tsp=1


by lonnette33 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:20:37 AM EST


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